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I'm here.
Okay we're rolling, ready, yeah.

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Vic, tell us the story of MTAS' birth
and the role Herb Bingham played and...

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We understand MTAS was Herb Bingham's
brainchild.

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Very much so.
Herb came to the Tennessee Municipal

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League right after World War II ended

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and he found that he had an organization
staffed only by himself and Ms. Dixon

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and they valiantly tried to do
everything that needed to be done but

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they knew they couldn't so he 
conceived the

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idea of a technical service based at the
university.

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To kick that off, he invited Luther Gulik
to speak to the

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1947 League Convention, I think it was,
might have been '48,

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and in that speech, Luther Gulick, who was 
a big man in public administration

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nationally

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mentioned and recommended that
Tennessee establish such a

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technical service
and that's just what Herb wanted and he

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promoted it among his people and they
had a solid front on it,

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went to the legislature and in 1949,
the legislature passed a special act

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creating MTAS as a part of the
then Division of University Extension at

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the University
and

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the initial act provided for equal
funding

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35,000 from the state general fund
and 35,000 from the cities' share of the

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state sales tax.
It definitely would not have occurred if

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it had not been for Herbert Bingham.
I think that it could uh be said that

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if you have to pick out any one man

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who's done more for Tennessee cities
than any other one man or person,

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it would have to be Herb Bingham.

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Well, Herb had to

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sell the idea of MTAS to the city
officials. How did that

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come into play?
Well, I, I wasn't in on

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the conversations that he had with
the city officials initially because I

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didn't come to MTAS until 1950.

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but I know that he his his mode of 
operation was to

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build a base of support among his 
people and

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he essentially convinced them that 
they needed

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technical assistance that, especially 
the small cities, could

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not afford to hire

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as members of their own staff.

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Describe as best you can the early 
vision of MTAS that Herb had and

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how that MTAS would be viewed today 
if Herb

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was looking at.

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Well, uh,

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Herb wanted Tennessee cities to have 
the best uh

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most efficient municipal government that
they could and

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having done graduate work at the
University of Chicago in political

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science he was well aware of the
need for professional help,

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and that was the main driving force
of his effort

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to provide that kind of professional
technical help to city officials,

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and uh uh he

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he succeeded at that I think because
we uh

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we were always overrun with requests.
We tried to deal

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with them on a first come first serve
basis, but

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sometimes if it was an emergency, well,
something pressing we pushed that city

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ahead of the others.
Now I I think

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the proof of MTAS's success is the way 
that it has grown and

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today it's I suppose its budget is
well over a

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million dollars. Herb's vision was

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make municipal government
efficient, responsive to the people,

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and and progressive. And...

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Herb seemed to be a natural born
leader, wasn't he? Yes yes he was. He

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he related to everybody who worked with
him very well,

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yeah, he

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was a good salesman, he could sell his
ideas,

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and of course in his job he had to. He
worked with

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legislative officials, state

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administrative officials, in addition to
all of his

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many city mayors and city council
members and others. He had quite a

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large number of people to

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keep in line and he succeeded very well
at it.

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What were some of Herb's characteristics
that ensured the success of TML?

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Well, I would put determination and
persistence at the head of the list?

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Yeah, well, next to vision. I think 
overall he

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:41.600
was a great visionary, he had a great
vision of what needed to be done, but

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and in accomplishing what he wanted to
do he had

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determination and persistence,
sometimes almost to a fault.

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There was one time it was rumored that
one of the governors wouldn't let him

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come in the office because
he had

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pushed for something the governor didn't
want just too hard.

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And during that time, why,

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other city officials were the contact
persons with the governor's office, but

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he uh he was determined, he was
very capable. He

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could analyze problems and

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know what they, what they needed, what 
was needed to

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solve them. He was a great TVA supporter,

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though there we had some--

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overall he was a strong TVA supporter
but

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he and other municipal officials felt at
times that in their power program that

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TVA wasn't really taking into account the 
needs and

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desires of some of the cities they 
served.

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Not only was Herb your colleague and
friend...

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How long?
Well, not just how long but

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you have any funny anecdotes about Herb
you'd like to share with us?

00:07:05.039 --> 00:07:06.039
Well...

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I worked with Herb from 1950 to 1980 
when I retired. My contacts with

00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:21.919
Herb have been sporadic

00:07:21.919 --> 00:07:27.160
since. Hardly any in the last 10 years 
or so.

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Well, one occasion I remember was when 
the

00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:41.440
cities had a conference with the TVA
board,

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and maybe it wasn't the board, I believe
it was just the general manager

00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:54.800
and officials of the--no, it may have 
been the board. Anyway,

00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:00.160
he uh was the spokesman for the cities
and he pushed pretty hard for what he

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thought should be done at that time.
He pretty well dominated the meeting.

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I would have to to pick out--
nothing comes to mind,

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particular of that nature right now.
I, uh...

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What did you most respect about Herb
Bingham?

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Well, I respected his

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his knowledge of municipal government,
his ability to

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to marshal his forces,

00:08:34.459 --> 00:08:39.120
people to get them together, to get
agreement on the

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objectives and and how to go about
getting where they want to go.

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He was a great tactician in the field of
municipal government politics.

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I think I'd, my

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most admired feature to repeat what I've
already said would

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be his determination to accomplish his

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objectives. He just didn't, he 
wouldn't think of quitting. He just

00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:04.399
kept going.

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That's great. Is there anything that
you'd like to say about

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Mr. Bingham that we haven't asked you?

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Well, I don't believe so.

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I don't think it's--no, it's too
personal. I was gonna say

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I wouldn't have gotten my PhD if it
hadn't been for Herb Bingham.

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A lot of other factors entered into it
too, but...

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Tell us about that. This is an informal
thing.

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Well, I had left Syracuse in 1947 with 
my ABD, "All But

00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:54.880
Dissertation." Fortunately, I

00:09:54.880 --> 00:09:58.320
met the language requirement and my

00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.519
advisor told me don't worry about it,
your dissertation, no time limit on it.

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So, this uh conference I mentioned

00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:10.000
with the TVA people occurred in 1953,

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and I thought well, this is an area

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that would bear some research in writing
about the relations between cities and

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TVA and the distribution of electric
power.

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And that was accepted uh by Syracuse 
and

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Herb wanted it done, the Municipal
League wanted it done,

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and so I could justify putting in some
of my office time on it,

00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:40.079
and I did a lot of research, library
research.

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I went to Panama for a two-year leave of

00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.440
absence on a two-year leave of absence
and

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the shooting occurred down there in
about  1964 Christmas-time 1964 and

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the university of--the government canceled 
the university's

00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:04.079
contract and sent us all back home, they
had to pay me uh my salary for a

00:11:04.079 --> 00:11:07.600
year minus the salary that I
received as a member of the Bureau of

00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.640
Public Administration and

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so I had a whole year there to finish up
that uh dissertation and uh

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it was eventually published for UT Press
under the title "Sparks at the Grassroots."

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That's far too long and too personalized.

00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:33.920
Well, that doesn't involve Herb nearly as
much as it does me. I thought I

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uh

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Well, that's fine, you've given us what
we need.

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I wish I could think something real
funny about Herb, but I can't at the

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moment.
Know anything about his family life?

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He was a big family man, wasn't he?
Oh yeah, and um

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uh his wife always accompanied him when
he went to conventions.

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She was--her name--

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My memory for names is poor at times.

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He had two children, a son and a 
daughter and uh

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I never saw too much of them but he he
talked about him every now and then.

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Um...

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I'd say, yes, it was a hypothetical
question to you. If he hadn't,

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he hadn't been the person he was 
with with the

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TML and MTAS official that he was, what
do you think he would have been good at

00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:51.440
in life? If he had chosen another 
occupation,

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What could he have done?
I think Herb would have made a good

00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:58.880
college professor. I think that was 
his uh

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initial aim when he enrolled at the 
University of

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:07.519
Chicago graduate school

00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:12.480
in political science.

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Now he got his masters and he had plans
to get his doctorate, but those plans

00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:20.079
were dropped when he took the job with 
the Municipal League.

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I think he would have made a real good
college professor.

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That's good.

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Mm-hmm.

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All right, we're rolling.

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We're going to be talking about the
Herbert J. Bingham Visiting

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Consultancy at MTAS. Mrs. Puett, will 
the program be similar to

00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:11.760
an endowed academic chair. 
It will be similar.

00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:16.320
the difference will be, however, this
will be a short-term appointment whereas

00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:19.760
most endowed chairs are permanent
appointments,

00:14:19.760 --> 00:14:24.240
at least for or for a longer period of
time but we're hoping our consultancies

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will range anywhere from three months or
six months depending on the person and

00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:28.720
depending on the topic.

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What sorts topic people will be
consultants?

00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:40.000
We hope we'll be able to bring people in
of national stature, people that we could

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:43.120
not afford to hire on a regular basis,
they wouldn't be available, or we

00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:48.000
couldn't afford them if they were, and
persons who have some specialties that

00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.639
we wouldn't need on a full-time basis,
but for a particular issue or particular

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concern of the moment.
These persons would have you know

00:14:56.800 --> 00:15:01.279
expertise of national or international
note. We also hope that we might be able

00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:01.779
to

00:15:01.990 --> 00:15:08.800
attract some senior statesmen, people 
who are no longer in

00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:12.800
public office but people who have been a
mayor for many many years and who have

00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:16.320
wonderful experience. We're particularly
interested in people at a policy-making

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level. We have lots of technicians and 
those

00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:24.639
are important and we wouldn't, you know,
we would, they would not be excluded but

00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:29.360
this would allow us to branch out and
bring some some of the people in who

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have dealt with policy issues at various
levels and of an intergovernmental

00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:39.120
nature, too.
What is your vision of what this

00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.040
consultancy can do for Tennessee cities
and for MTAS?

00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:49.040
I think it can do two things basically.
Number one is I think it can

00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:52.320
uh let us add a dimension that I've just 
talked about that we

00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:56.399
haven't been able to do before and that
we could have some specialty expertise

00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.680
for short periods of time that we we
could not have otherwise.

00:15:59.680 --> 00:16:04.880
I think also it will raise the
visibility of MTAS and I think that's

00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:08.800
important for us and the Institute for
Public Service. It's important for the

00:16:08.800 --> 00:16:12.880
University of Tennessee and I think when
we are able to attract people of the

00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:17.120
quality that I think the consultantship
will permit us to do, then I think we'll

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:21.040
get national and statewide recognition 
for for having

00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:24.880
those kind of persons associated with
our program, and I think that will be

00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:28.720
beneficial, absolutely.
Is MTAS today what Herb Bingham

00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:33.519
envisioned decades ago?
Well, obviously I'm not sure what Herb

00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:40.480
Bingham envisioned decade decades ago,
but I know he was very proud of what he

00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.399
founded or what he birthed, we might say.
He was very uh

00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:53.839
paternalistic in in a sense of feeling a
lot of ownership of MTAS,

00:16:53.839 --> 00:16:56.480
and was a mentor I think to everyone who
was a part of that staff. I certainly

00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:01.279
felt that way that Herb

00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:08.640
was a mentor to me during my eight years
at MTAS.

00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.959
He was such an intense and focused
person on anything to do with municipal

00:17:12.959 --> 00:17:19.039
government. He felt very strongly about

00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.679
strengthening and improving the quality
governmental services and

00:17:23.679 --> 00:17:27.679
governmental policy, and he was just a 
bulldog when he went

00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:32.400
after an issue. We used to say, you 
know, Herb doesn't

00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:37.280
hear well, and he did have a a real
hearing problem, but I also think Herb

00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:43.840
didn't hear what he didn't want to hear,
and and if he was off on a track he

00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:47.360
followed that track all the way through
and I think

00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:52.559
most of the good legislation that's on
Tennessee's books

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.919
uh is a result of Herb Bingham's
tenacity and and

00:17:55.919 --> 00:18:01.280
he crossed--locked horns with whomever

00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:04.960
uh in what he believed for Tennessee
cities. There was nothing personal about

00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.240
it. I mean, he just believed so intense it
was a very unselfish kind of uh a belief

00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.080
in in
in city government.

00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:17.760
And he was known nationally for that. I
mean, we had a very high profile when you

00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:22.960
went to a National League of Cities
meeting,

00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:28.640
Herb was the acknowledged number one 
league director and municipal

00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.880
expert on most issues and as a
consequence of his leadership many

00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.720
Tennessee officials also served in key
positions in the National League of cities.

00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:46.080
Let's talk about the men that this
consultancy honors. Who was Herb's family?

00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:51.679
He would tell you he was a farm boy from
middle Tennessee. He loved going home to

00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:54.559
his farm in in Murray County.

00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:03.280
He was a family man, he was very proud of
his two children.

00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:06.880
He and his wife maxine were a very close
couple.

00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:12.240
They were both very short. They even
looked a little bit alike.

00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.280
Maxine had long red hair. She accompanied

00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:20.480
Herbb to all the meetings that we would 
go to

00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.360
and and and was a kind of official host
as a kind of first lady for the for the

00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:29.280
cities of Tennessee. She was a marvelous
pianist,

00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:34.880
and I in my memory I can see could think 
of sitting

00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:39.039
in a hotel coffee shop and one of the
Bingham children running in to get a

00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.720
credit card to go buy something,
because the children were usually along

00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:48.160
when we went to the NLC meetings.

00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.880
He was a great warm human being,
but I really think the only thing in his

00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:58.559
life that what were his main interests 
in life

00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.160
were his family and his job and he was
very intent on both of those.

00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:09.360
What were some of Herb's characteristics
that ensured the success of TML and

00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:09.360
MTAS?

00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:17.039
Well, Herb's ability to stay focused and
not be distracted from,

00:20:17.919 --> 00:20:26.320
when other things came up that would
would take the focus off off of a

00:20:26.320 --> 00:20:30.880
legislative program, for example.
There would--the legislature would no

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:35.840
more close down until he was working on
the legislative package for the

00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:40.880
next session of the legislature.
And he was forever having meetings of

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.480
groups of mayors. He used his board of
directors, but he was a very strong

00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:52.400
leader for that board of directors.
In the years that I knew Herb he had a

00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:58.159
very small staff. Austin Atkinson was his
primary, he was the assistant director,

00:20:58.159 --> 00:21:02.799
and Sue Dixon, who everybody would
remember, Sue Dixon who was his longtime

00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:07.520
secretary, who he used to get real
frustrated about because Ms. Dixon talked

00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:10.960
so much and and they would almost fight
like

00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.720
brother and sister, then Bob Lovelace, 
who was an MTAS

00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:19.760
consultant based in Nashville was also
in the League office and and that was it.

00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:26.159
That's quite in contrast to the the kind
of staffing that that is here today.

00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:31.679
But I think the kind of League we have
today in Tennessee is a tribute to Herb's,

00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:35.520
the foundation that Herb laid from the
very beginning when he became executive

00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:41.360
director of the Tennessee Municipal
League. He was very proud of the strength

00:21:41.360 --> 00:21:46.240
of staff resources that are now at the

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.200
Tennessee Municipal League and the close
relationship with MTAS,

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:55.919
but really in the earlier days, MTAS
worked even closer with the League,

00:21:55.919 --> 00:21:59.520
because they had such a small staff and
now the staff does have some

00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:05.919
capabilities that enable them to do 
things that, without as

00:22:05.919 --> 00:22:09.919
much assistance from from MTAS.
Do you remember a special story about

00:22:09.919 --> 00:22:10.119
Herb?

00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.679
I probably do, but I probably shouldn't
record them here.

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:23.120
Because, and they all most all of them,
will revolve around either a TML

00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:29.200
convention or a uh

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.679
an  NLC convention somewhere uh,
because Herb was forever

00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:37.440
uh attending to details and fussing at
Ms. Dixon for leaving something undone

00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:43.600
that needed to be done. It would be a
whole lot of them rolled into one.

00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:47.600
What did you most respect about Herb?
His knowledge and his commitment.

00:22:47.679 --> 00:22:54.559
Herb was was brilliant. I mean, he really
knew

00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.919
city government, and

00:22:57.919 --> 00:23:02.240
he believed it could be better. He
believed it was the most important level

00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:07.679
of government, I think, because it was
very close to the people,

00:23:07.679 --> 00:23:12.480
and he took great pride in helping make
it better.

00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.080
He has of course wrote a book which is a
great contribution to

00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:20.480
municipal libraries and

00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:25.840
he, his intense feeling about it, he

00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:30.080
maintained till the day he died.
I was very pleased that we were

00:23:30.080 --> 00:23:34.880
able to talk with him about this
consultancy before he became

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.400
more ill, the illness that led to his 
death.

00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.960
And he was just excited and wanted 
to be

00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.559
just as involved and we tried to tell
him that, Herb, we knew the state of his

00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:51.600
health would not permit him to help us 
raise the money to endow the

00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:57.039
consultancy. He was going to make a
personal gift from his own funds,

00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.960
but became ill before he was able to do
that.

00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.480
But you know he was ready to go out and
wanted to start making lists. He took out

00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.480
that yellow legal pad which he was so
noted for carrying around and he was

00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.440
ready to start, you know, making all the
writing, out all the arrangements and

00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.640
details and defining exactly what this
consultancy could be,

00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.880
because he had already decided it ought
to be something that the the consultant

00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.799
ought to deal with the relationship
between city government and federal

00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.440
government, and we tried to explain to
Herb that we wanted to cover a range of

00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.480
topics that whatever the issue of the
moment would be that would be the

00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.240
special expertise that we would want to
be bringing in. He just ignored that. I

00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.880
mean, it was as if we never said it, I mean
he would go right back again to that

00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.200
same topic, so he did not change from, you
know, what he thought it ought to be. I

00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.200
mean, he would just stay on that track,
but uh

00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.600
I am pleased that he knew of our wish to
do that, and he was so pleased he gave,

00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:55.919
brought me lots of information about
himself that we could use,

00:24:55.919 --> 00:24:59.600
so it was a grand--

00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:03.919
he was a wonderful person and I don't
suspect that there will ever be anyone

00:25:03.919 --> 00:25:07.440
that I think would be as knowledgeable. I
can't imagine anyone being any more

00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:13.120
knowledgeable than he was and I respect
him for that and his commitment.

00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:17.919
You mentioned integrity and vision and
values and being driven. If you could

00:25:17.919 --> 00:25:21.840
describe him in just one word, just one
adjective, what would that adjective be?

00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:29.000
Committed.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:39.600
Thank you. One more question, this is 
hypothetical.

00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:42.960
If Herb hadn't been the director of TML,
what else, what do you think he could

00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.919
have done in life if he hadn't chosen 
that particular profession?

00:25:45.919 --> 00:25:58.159
He would have--although he wasn't, he
didn't have a legal mind. He

00:25:58.159 --> 00:26:02.640
used the MTAS lawyers, my husband in
particular,

00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.039
on legal issues, but he had the kind of 
mind that could deal

00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.440
with the kind of details that lawyers
have to deal with, and as you know as

00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.520
determined as he was, I mean, I could
imagine him as a trial lawyer. I mean, he

00:26:15.520 --> 00:26:20.120
could badger a witness like crazy. I mean,
he'd get anything he wanted out of them!

00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:39.120
Guys, let's take our time on this one.

00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:43.679
We're rolling. Of course you know I'm
not going to ask you anything you don't

00:26:43.679 --> 00:26:47.840
already know. I'm just talking, talking.
I talked to you at first little bit about

00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:52.559
the Tennessee Municipal League.
Would you say or would it be safe to say

00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:58.080
that the Tennessean Municipal League for
many years was Mr. Bingham?

00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:00.799
Oh sure, you know they called him Mr. TML,
and that's because when everybody

00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.480
thought about the League they thought
about Herb.

00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:09.279
I mean, he was the focal point,
the presidents of the League who are

00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:12.960
mayors of cities, sometimes councilmen,
come and go but Herb was always there

00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.559
and Herb was always kind of the driving
force, well he always was the driving

00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:20.880
force really behind everything that the
League

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.640
did. One thing that'd be very helpful for me 
if you somehow are able to incorporate part

00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.919
of my question in your answer. Sure.
Okay, can you describe--

00:27:27.919 --> 00:27:31.240
What? That's fine. [Laughter]
Can you describe the state of Tennessee
Municipal League

00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:49.919
when Herb took over the League? The state
of it was probably the state of the

00:27:49.919 --> 00:27:54.080
Garden of Eden when
Adam and Eve got there. I mean it wasn't

00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:58.960
any municipal league. They were in
bankruptcy, the furniture was about to be

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:03.120
sold. I mean, it was nothing to it, it was
just

00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:07.120
an idea and a name and he built it into
really one of the most powerful

00:28:07.120 --> 00:28:11.559
organizations in the state of Tennessee,
and one of the best leagues in the

00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:11.959
country.

00:28:21.679 --> 00:28:29.600
Early early battles were bloody. I mean,
they were and Herb loved every minute of

00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.279
it. I mean he loved getting in the pit
and just fighting away

00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:38.320
he uh he made every every governor mad

00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:41.840
that ever existed on, you know, no matter
who they were,

00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:45.440
because he was always up there scrapping
and fighting for cities and when you get

00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.360
something for cities you often take it
away from some state department or

00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:53.919
something, but he was tenacious. He got
involved in all kinds of political

00:28:53.919 --> 00:28:59.039
campaigns, wrote speeches for
gubernatorial candidates,

00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.559
encouraged people to run for office and
was just a general pain in the ass, you

00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:05.559
know, which was what made him so
successful.

00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:19.440
Herb's representation was rather
nationwide? Herb's nationwide reputation.

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.799
He was known all over the country and he
was known pretty much throughout the

00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.000
country for the same thing he was known
for here.

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.320
Everybody thought of Herb as a serious
little guy he wasn't always serious, he

00:29:30.320 --> 00:29:36.000
had uh some uh light moments, but he he 
generally was

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.640
was very intense about everything that
he believed in and everything he worked

00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.240
for, um and uh

00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:46.159
never let up and and never let up on
himself. I mean, they, you know, they used

00:29:46.159 --> 00:29:51.679
to say that Herb worked from morning till 
midnight and he did.

00:29:51.679 --> 00:29:54.720
Or sun up to midnight. And he uh he was
kind of known that way throughout the

00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.159
nation. He he would--

00:29:58.159 --> 00:30:01.200
the most powerful mayor in the country
at the National League of Cities meeting,

00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.559
Herb didn't have any problem telling the
guy he was out of line and challenging

00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.840
him on something that he didn't think 
was in

00:30:07.840 --> 00:30:12.080
the best interest of the cities of the
nation and consequently he gradually

00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:17.919
gained a reputation around the country
as being somebody who was not only a

00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:21.520
a tenacious person and a and a vigorous
fighter but also somebody who was quite

00:30:21.520 --> 00:30:24.320
knowledgeable. Herb was very well-read
well-educated.

00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:30.080
Everybody still comfortable? Good job
so far.

00:30:30.159 --> 00:30:34.840
Okay, what were some of Herb's

00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:38.640
characteristics that helped ensure he
was successful?

00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:41.360
Well, he just never gave up. He was like
one of those little dolls that you

00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:45.039
knocked over and he'd come right back up,
you know and

00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:50.320
time and time again legislators, powerful
legislators, governors and so forth,

00:30:50.320 --> 00:30:54.960
US senators thought that they had Herb
down and he would come right back and

00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:59.520
and usually win.
He didn't win every battle but he won

00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:04.799
most of them and it was because he was
so tenacious and he did he did a lot of

00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:08.000
research. He was of course instrumental 
in

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.760
creating
the Municipal Technical Advisory Service

00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:16.640
and the Center for Government Training,
but he didn't just create those and then

00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:21.440
get the University of Tennessee to run
them. I mean, he also used them to do

00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.640
research for cities and and and he
created a great arsenal there to take to

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.760
the legislature and use to pass bills.
But his tenaciousness is the thing I

00:31:31.760 --> 00:31:35.200
think most about him, and grit, I mean, he
just was a real fighter.

00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:42.960
Is it true he was stubborn?
Oh yeah, he could be very very stubborn.

00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.640
He um

00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:52.559
would occasionally make uh enemies on 
Capitol Hill because uh

00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.360
uh he was not inclined to compromise all
the time. I mean, he felt that there were

00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:01.200
certain things that cities needed,
uh certain things they were entitled to

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:06.480
and that those things shouldn't be
compromised away and he was very

00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.320
stubborn in this but I I you know
there's this concept that comes out of

00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:14.320
the Bible about just anger. Well, I always
thought of Herb as having just

00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:19.840
stubbornness. I mean, there was a rational
basis to his stubbornness and a and a

00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:23.600
certain moral dimension to it uh um
and of course I'm prejudiced because I

00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:28.320
feel the same ways about cities, but he
he had this just stubbornness that was

00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:32.720
that it was kind of a righteous uh
crusade that he would carry on for the

00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.919
cities of the state and and we are we're
still benefiting from that.

00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:46.720
But there was also a softer side? 
There was a softer side to Herb that most 
people didn't see, certainly

00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.480
most people in public life didn't see.

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.720
His daughter-in-law told said something
at his funeral that I really touched me

00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:58.399
and I think summed up this little

00:32:58.399 --> 00:33:02.320
soft uh tender side of Herb that people 
don't

00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:05.919
often see. She said there was an apple
tree

00:33:05.919 --> 00:33:11.679
between their houses. They lived on a
farm together, his son and

00:33:11.679 --> 00:33:15.519
daughter-in-law lived in a big cab uh
log cabin and Herb lived on a little

00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.799
one and there was an apple tree between
there but Herb would never pick the

00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.919
apples because he liked the way they
looked in the moonlight.

00:33:21.919 --> 00:33:26.000
And I, you know, that just said something 
very

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:29.279
tender about Herb that was that was down
there. There was really--

00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:32.640
most of these tough guys if you dig down
deep enough you'll find a soft spot. That

00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:38.159
was Herb's.
What did you respect the most about Herb?

00:33:38.159 --> 00:33:42.320
Well, I respected him because he really
believed in his cause and he never gave

00:33:42.320 --> 00:33:47.200
up on it and he he um

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:53.039
probably sacrificed much of his own

00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.440
pleasure, certainly his own financial
gains that he could have made and a lot

00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:04.120
of his own comfort, just because he was so 
dedicated to the

00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:06.120
cause of municipal government.

00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:15.200
Whenever I hear people talk about a
person like

00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:18.240
Bingham and describe them such as you
have

00:34:18.240 --> 00:34:21.440
what always comes to my mind is, What is
it about that person that makes them

00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.919
that way? Is it something that they are
born with, is it a gift that God gave them,
or is it

00:34:25.919 --> 00:34:29.760
somehow nurtured and developed in growing
up? I mean, not everyone has that

00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:34.000
kind of [inaudible] figure of spirit.
What is it about, what is it that you

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.359
think he made him that way? Well, I'm not
sure that we always know um

00:34:39.359 --> 00:34:43.440
everything that made them that way. I
think Herb grew up

00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:49.359
with a maybe an exaggerated sense of place

00:34:49.359 --> 00:34:52.399
and that is that he he thought that
there were all these

00:34:52.399 --> 00:34:57.599
certain places, little towns and cities
and that all of

00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:02.800
them were important and that you had to
do something to help those places

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.359
uh keep from deteriorating and crumbling
and and I think he had that kind of uh

00:35:07.359 --> 00:35:11.280
uh spirit in him that there that there
were all these places, and then you

00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:15.280
magnify that and and multiply it and
there were all these places across

00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.839
Tennessee that we call cities and he
felt that there was something very

00:35:17.839 --> 00:35:22.079
important about each one of them. They
were all different but but they were

00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:26.480
important and that he had um

00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:30.240
some sort of, had been had a call, maybe,
like you say in the ministry, you know,

00:35:30.240 --> 00:35:34.960
that he had a kind of a calling to to
make sure that all these places thrived,

00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:39.839
and and I think it all started off in
that little country town he came from,

00:35:39.839 --> 00:35:46.079
Culleoka, that he probably as a boy got to
love that place so much and he just he

00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.440
began to multiply that into other places.
Great.

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:53.839
Joe, this is hypothetical but if he
hadn't been the director of TML,

00:35:53.839 --> 00:35:57.599
what do you think he could have done in
life? What else could he have done?

00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.760
Oh I think given his uh

00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:07.599
his mind and his uh uh tendency toward 
research and and

00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:11.440
learning, I think Herb probably could very
well have been on a university faculty.

00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:16.320
He was a scholar,

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.200
and and loved scholarship and in fact he
intended I think at one time to be a

00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:23.040
teacher. So that's probably the thing most

00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:27.040
likely would have happened, although I
learned something

00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:31.040
that I had never known before at his
funeral and that was that he had such an

00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:34.560
intense uh love of agriculture which you
know kind

00:36:34.560 --> 00:36:38.320
of is 180

00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:43.119
degrees out of phase for a city person, a
person that works night and day for

00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:47.599
cities, that that he did a lot had this
deep down deep love of agriculture so

00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:52.160
much that he could have ended up being
an agronomist that that was that was

00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:55.200
suggested, still a scholar, but that he
loved

00:36:55.200 --> 00:37:00.320
to work with the earth and try to figure
out ways to do it better.

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.440
Super. Okay?
Your check will be in--